Posts by Sola Scriptura

66

The two witness rule

by dgp in

suppose an active jehovah's witness sees a worldly person abusing a worldly child; for example, touching her genitals, and the witness goes to the police.

the worldly police will take action.. now, suppose the same jehovah's witness also sees a witness abusing a witness child in the same way, touching her genitals.

the witness knows he can't go to the elders because there are not two witnesses to the fact.. does the witness get to think that there is something very wrong about the two witnesses rule?

Sola Scriptura

To Mary:

You said:

You are correct in both respects.

Awesome! I'm glad we could agree on something.

Yes, the spirit of many of the laws would have still been practiced, but certainly not to the Letter of the Law that you are implying.

I never implied the Letter of the Old Law should be practiced by Christians. I have directly stated the opposite on many occasions.

Notice what I said above (taken from my 37th post):

"While Christians are not under the "Mosaic Law", many of the underlying principles in the O.T. are encouraged to be used in the Modern Christian Congregation.

This is where discernment and willingness to be progressive about certain Congregation Policies come into play."

66

The two witness rule

by dgp in

suppose an active jehovah's witness sees a worldly person abusing a worldly child; for example, touching her genitals, and the witness goes to the police.

the worldly police will take action.. now, suppose the same jehovah's witness also sees a witness abusing a witness child in the same way, touching her genitals.

the witness knows he can't go to the elders because there are not two witnesses to the fact.. does the witness get to think that there is something very wrong about the two witnesses rule?

Sola Scriptura

To wobble:

Please Re-Read What I said.
I think you are missing my point.

Respectfully,
Sola

---

To Titus:

You said:

BTW, I too appreciate your kind manner.

Thank you.

Sola, you are trying to explain something to insincere people.

I've been following this board for years and I feel, although some are bitter and insincere, many on here are genuinely honest and hurt from injustices done to them by so called respected Leaders from the JW world. (This is Fact not Fiction).

I will not judge between who is being insincere and who is not. I will initially take everyones story, question or statement at face value. God thru Christ as well as the Court of Public Opinion will judge if their sincerity has the ring of Truth.

As I stated on another thread here:

I'm not here to score a touch down for "Team JW".

I'm here to Defend & Learn "Truth". No one on this planet has ALL of the answers.

Philippians 4:5(The Message)

Make it as clear as you can to all you meet that you're on their side, working with them and not against them.

Philippians 4:5 (New Living Translation)

Let everyone see that you are considerate in all you do.

Philippians 4:5-7 (Amplified Bible)

Let all men know and perceive and recognize your unselfishness (your considerateness, your forbearing spirit).

(Please forgive me Titus if I offended you with my soap box rant... Sola stepping down now )

Agape,
---
Sola Scriptura

"Accept truth wherever you find it, no matter what it contradicts." - Charles T. Russell
Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence. pp. 8-9 July 1879

66

The two witness rule

by dgp in

suppose an active jehovah's witness sees a worldly person abusing a worldly child; for example, touching her genitals, and the witness goes to the police.

the worldly police will take action.. now, suppose the same jehovah's witness also sees a witness abusing a witness child in the same way, touching her genitals.

the witness knows he can't go to the elders because there are not two witnesses to the fact.. does the witness get to think that there is something very wrong about the two witnesses rule?

Sola Scriptura

To sherah:

You said:

Oh, I see. This not a clear-cut WT procedure for dealing with pedophiles.

You can't get any clearer than a statement by the Official Watchtower spokesman. Combine that with the Elders guidebook, BOE letters, Elder schools and plain common sense, Elders SHOULD be more than equipped to handle their duties.

The Problem with this assumption is:

1) Some Elders are LAZY.
I know some Elders who don't thoroughly read their guide books. They just go along with what ever the PO (now COBE) or senior Elders say. If I had a nickel for ever time I heard an Elder misquote their guidebook or BOE letters...

2) It's inherently difficult for men to deal with complex emotional situations with Love. (Not all men... but most). Most men prefer to either avoid the situation entirely or coldly handle it "By The Book".

3) Weeds are still among the Wheat (Matthew 13:24-30)
No matter how much we try to perfect procedure, there are going to be those who will simple not Love the flock. (Even at higher levels as RayFranz has courageously brought to our attention).

---
To truthseekeriam:

You Said:

I appreciate your kind manner

Thank you. I wish the words I type could truly reflect the pain I feel for the hurt my Brothers & Sisters have suffered over the years.

I finally realized they were only doing what they were told to do.

But I have forgiven them because they were put in a horrible position.

I ask this next question respectfully:
Did you come to this realization on your own? Or do you have concrete evidence that members at Bethel ordered your Elders to treat you this way?

If you do have Concrete evidence or names of Bethel members from the Service Desk that ordered your Elders to treat you this way, please pm the evidence. I can use it to continue my Quest to expose the Weeds at Bethel and beyond.

Sincerely,
Sola Scriptura
---
'A simple layman armed with Scripture is greater than the mightiest pope without it'

- Martin Luther

66

The two witness rule

by dgp in

suppose an active jehovah's witness sees a worldly person abusing a worldly child; for example, touching her genitals, and the witness goes to the police.

the worldly police will take action.. now, suppose the same jehovah's witness also sees a witness abusing a witness child in the same way, touching her genitals.

the witness knows he can't go to the elders because there are not two witnesses to the fact.. does the witness get to think that there is something very wrong about the two witnesses rule?

Sola Scriptura

To sherah:

J.R. Brown, Watchtower spokesman, is reported by the Associated Press on February 11, 2001 to have said: "...corroborating evidence can be used instead of a second witness to prove wrongdoing."

on page 111 of the Elder guide book it says "strong circumstantial evidence" could be considered.

(So victims, go to the police 1st. Get a conviction from Caesar. Then bring that to the Elders as your "strong circumstantial evidence". If that doesn't get them df'd then at least they will be tagged and bagged for the entire congregation to see.)

The Elder guide book also states that 2 separate witnesses of the same kind of wrong doing on separate occasions could stand together and accuse their perpetrator. (I personally know of a case where this worked perfectly to get a lying no good pedophile disfellowshipped.)

66

The two witness rule

by dgp in

suppose an active jehovah's witness sees a worldly person abusing a worldly child; for example, touching her genitals, and the witness goes to the police.

the worldly police will take action.. now, suppose the same jehovah's witness also sees a witness abusing a witness child in the same way, touching her genitals.

the witness knows he can't go to the elders because there are not two witnesses to the fact.. does the witness get to think that there is something very wrong about the two witnesses rule?

Sola Scriptura

To Titus:

Hello Brother!

I've been a lurker for quite a few years, but I’ve only had limited time to actually participate.

Agape

---
To GLTirebiter:

Awesome!

We need more Leaders (of ALL faiths) to follow the lead of Archbishop Chaput, and be more proactive in protecting Children.

---

To wobble:

You said:

(O.T verses carry no weight for the reasons I stated above)

The scripture at 2 Timothy 3:16 disagrees with your above statement.

While Christians are not under the "Mosaic Law", many of the underlying principles in the O.T. are encouraged to be used in the Modern Christian Congregation.

This is where discernment and willingness to be progressive about certain Congregation Policies come into play.

Paul showed in the following scripture, that the Two Witness Principle (not law), was not dead, and thus still carried weight in the new Christian Congregation.

2 Corinthians 13:1 (Amplified Bible):

“THIS IS the third time that I am coming to you. By the testimony of two or three witnesses must any charge and every accusing statement be sustained and confirmed.”

Even though Child Abuse existed back in Christian Congregation, there is not one explicit scripture that details a procedure for handling it. So Modern Christian Leaders must, to the best of their ability, try to logically deduce what the congregation should do in these matters.

The JWs have chosen to apply the Two Witness Principle as a guiding force for all accusations of sin (no matter what the sin is). (Remember Child Abuse is both a Sin & a Crime).

Over time we have tweaked our policy to make it harder for lying no good predators to skirt the system. Since corroborating evidence (including police dna evidence, court conviction etc) can be used as the "2nd" witness", a lying child abuser can get DF'd on the basis of just the child’s testimony, if the Elders don't interfere with the Parents right & responsibility to have Caesar properly investigate the criminal side of the matter.

Elders, COs, DOs, GB etc, who do harass the victim and their family from going to the police, or make them feel guilty are unloving & simple not following our official established procedures. (Remember Weeds still exist among the Wheat).

To Contentious Lurking Elders:
Click here for more information on things YOU CAN do when your hands are tied from Dfing a slick lying Child Abuser who you FEEL is guilty.

To Lurking Elders Gone Wild™:
Please stop being LAZY and start shepherding the flock.

Shepherd
to guide or guard in the manner of a shepherd
---
Sola Scriptura

”We would not refuse to treat one as a brother because he did not believe the Society is the Lord's channel.
If others see it in a different way, that is their privilege. There should be full liberty of conscience.”

WT April 1, 1920, p. 100, 101

66

The two witness rule

by dgp in

suppose an active jehovah's witness sees a worldly person abusing a worldly child; for example, touching her genitals, and the witness goes to the police.

the worldly police will take action.. now, suppose the same jehovah's witness also sees a witness abusing a witness child in the same way, touching her genitals.

the witness knows he can't go to the elders because there are not two witnesses to the fact.. does the witness get to think that there is something very wrong about the two witnesses rule?

Sola Scriptura

To: GLTirebiter

Awesome find! (I stand corrected)
This is the first I've ever seen from the Catholic Church.

Is this Official Policy of the entire Catholic Church now? or is this the policy of just the Denver Archdiocese?

Thanks for the info.
---
Sola Scriptura

"Accept truth wherever you find it, no matter what it contradicts." - Charles T. Russell
Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence. pp. 8-9 July 1879

66

The two witness rule

by dgp in

suppose an active jehovah's witness sees a worldly person abusing a worldly child; for example, touching her genitals, and the witness goes to the police.

the worldly police will take action.. now, suppose the same jehovah's witness also sees a witness abusing a witness child in the same way, touching her genitals.

the witness knows he can't go to the elders because there are not two witnesses to the fact.. does the witness get to think that there is something very wrong about the two witnesses rule?

Sola Scriptura

To: truthseekeriam
You said:

I'm sorry, but we lived it. I did exactly what you all say to do, I went to the authorities first and guess what? We were treated like crap by the elders from that point on. Did they say, "you did the wrong thing?" No...

I'm so sorry things happened that way.

All I can say is the Elders Gone Wild™ did not handle your case with Love. (There are still Weeds among the Wheat of Christians... Even at some of the highest levels of Christianity).

But all cases don't turn out the way yours did. I have personal knowledge of Elders going that extra mile to protect the congregation. If you have time read about here: Post 18 by me.

When things go right they rarely get advertised. But when things go wrong... well... we hear about here on JWN. (As well we should!) Thus bringing what happens in the dark into the light. That's why I applaud the courage of Barbara Anderson and others like you in bringing the "Facts" to us.

Please read the debate I had with Big Tex here.
(Specifically post 12978 by him. Toward the end he starts off with: "Truthfully? Okay, I'll be very honest. I don't think I've ever posted this anywhere online on any board." He reveals his full story for the 1st time on JWN!) His story will break your heart. But he made it through. I'm sure his courage to tell his horrific experience has touched and encouraged many victims here on JWN.

I look forward to when the following scripture becomes reality for us all.

Revelation 21:4 (Contemporary English Version)

"He will wipe all tears from their eyes, and there will be no more death, suffering, crying, or pain. These things of the past are gone forever."

Agape,
---
Sola Scriptura

“I made an ass of myself.”
- J. F. Rutherford

66

The two witness rule

by dgp in

suppose an active jehovah's witness sees a worldly person abusing a worldly child; for example, touching her genitals, and the witness goes to the police.

the worldly police will take action.. now, suppose the same jehovah's witness also sees a witness abusing a witness child in the same way, touching her genitals.

the witness knows he can't go to the elders because there are not two witnesses to the fact.. does the witness get to think that there is something very wrong about the two witnesses rule?

Sola Scriptura

To Mary:

You said:

Yes, but as I've already stated, the authority that the Nation of Israel had when conducting a criminal investigation had long passed by Jesus' day. They did not have the legal authority to dole out punishments

1) 1 Timothy 5:19 is written to the Christian Congregation. (thus continuing not ending the long held "Two Witness" Principle).

2) Child Abuse is BOTH a Crime and a Sin;
So Caesar should handle the Crime While the congregation handles the Sin (To Disfellowship or not).

3) The Parents have the number one responsibility and right to protect their children and go to the authorities to stop further abuse. If the Society, CO, Local elder etc takes away that right, then they are scripturally wrong to do so.

Much Respect Mary

66

The two witness rule

by dgp in

suppose an active jehovah's witness sees a worldly person abusing a worldly child; for example, touching her genitals, and the witness goes to the police.

the worldly police will take action.. now, suppose the same jehovah's witness also sees a witness abusing a witness child in the same way, touching her genitals.

the witness knows he can't go to the elders because there are not two witnesses to the fact.. does the witness get to think that there is something very wrong about the two witnesses rule?

Sola Scriptura

To leavingwt:

You said:

Greetings.

Greetings! Thanks for the warm welcome.

May I ask a few questions?

(1) Do the JWs subscribe to 'Sola Scriptura'? (just wondering, since it's your screen name)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura

"Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by scripture alone") is the doctrine that the Bible contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness. Consequently, sola scriptura demands that only those doctrines are to be admitted or confessed that are found directly within or indirectly by using valid logical deduction or valid deductive reasoning from scripture. However, sola scriptura is not a denial of other authorities governing Christian life and devotion. Rather, it simply demands that all other authorities are subordinate to, and are to be corrected by, the written word of God...

sola scriptura reflects a careful tension between the perspicuity (clarity) of Scripture necessary for its role as final authority, and the occasional need for its meaning to be revealed by exposition (Hebrews 5:12)...

By contrast, the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox Churches teach that the Scriptures are not the only infallible source of Christian doctrine. For them Scripture is but one of three equal authorities; the other two being Sacred Tradition and the episcopacy".

Based on the above definition, I believe we collectively try to be. Problems for us often arise from the "logical deduction" & "revealed by exposition" parts.

Like early Christians, Modern Christian Leaders sometimes go WAY "beyond what is written". This often happens when they focus to much on trying to "logically deduce" from the Bible, then "Reveal by exposition" things that God chose not to include in it.

(2) The advice you've given above sounds pretty good. Why doesn't the Society direct the publishers in the same manner?

Thank you. The advice is only my personal opinion. Why the Society does not, is not in my realm of knowledge.

From my personal experience:
a) Even when you make it clear to parent(s), they will not in any way bring reproach on the congregation or God by publicly going to the police, many times they still decide not to go, when the Accused is a close friend or family member. (This is a common human trait demonstrated by many Non JWs as well).

b) It's easier for Parents to go the Police when the Accused is a stranger or someone not close to them.

(3) In addition to contacting the Police and the Elders, would it be the loving thing to do to warn other parents within the congregation, so that they may keep their children away from the molester?

Yes.
But those who do the warning must be very careful that the Accused doesn't bring charges of slander against them if their guilt has not been established yet. That's the slippery slop Elders must walk. One most Churches don't dare touch.

Can you name one Major Religion that officially announces warnings of "Accused Child Molesters" to the flock?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence

If the Parents go to the Police 1st and the Child Abuser is arrested on credible evidence, Parents relaying factual information to fellow parents of the Accused arrest and subsequent trial would not be slanderous, because there will be Public Knowledge of the arrest to point to. (At least that how it should work on paper. But Imperfect Humans always get in the way of the Perfect Plan )

Agape,
---
Sola Scriptura

“I made an ass of myself.”
- J. F. Rutherford

66

The two witness rule

by dgp in

suppose an active jehovah's witness sees a worldly person abusing a worldly child; for example, touching her genitals, and the witness goes to the police.

the worldly police will take action.. now, suppose the same jehovah's witness also sees a witness abusing a witness child in the same way, touching her genitals.

the witness knows he can't go to the elders because there are not two witnesses to the fact.. does the witness get to think that there is something very wrong about the two witnesses rule?

Sola Scriptura

To Mary:

You said:

Old Testament example which is certainly not binding on Christians.

I listed these scriptures to primarily show: The "Principle" of the "Two Witness" rule is consistently mentioned throughout the entire Bible. (New & Old testament).

This valid Biblical "Principle" is what JWs use as a foundation for many major & minor Official Policies in the JW World.

2 Timothy 3:16 (Amplified Bible)
"Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God's will in thought, purpose, and action)"

Sorry Sola. But a "complaint" is something quite different than a "crime". Complaints were something that could still be handled internally both by the Jews and the first century Christians. Crimes were not.

Notice this translation:
1 Timothy 5:19 (Amplified Bible)

Listen to no accusation [presented before a judge] against an elder unless it is confirmed by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

accusation (?ækj?'ze???n)
— n
1. an allegation that a person is guilty of some fault, offence, or crime; imputation
2. a formal charge brought against a person stating the crime that he is alleged to have committed

Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/accusation

What Caesar (Government) decides to do with accusations consisting of only one witness is up to Caesar. But this scripture is clear on how the congregation should internally handle ANY accusation brought by only one witness.

That's why I believe Parents should ALWAYS go to the Police 1st & the Elders 2nd. Because the Elders hands are scripturally tied when it's one persons word against anothers. (Innocent until proven guilty).

You may believe you "reasonably showed" that the WTS's official position is "sound and reasonable" but I read over the links you provided and you showed nothing of the kind.

Please show me 1 or 2 specific examples of where I failed to make my case. (I'm always willing to accept Truth wherever I can find it. But it must be proven to me 1st.)

What you did do was ignore anyone who didn't agree with your weak argument...

In the debate with Big Tex, I responded to as many people as I had time for. (You must remember, we JW apologist are greatly out numbered here on JWN).

In the debate with Barbara Anderson, I stated clearly at the beginning of the thread that I would be debating the subject with Barbara only, (one of the best experts on the "facts" involving the JW Child abuse problem).

Here is the disclaimer I posted at the beginning of the Barbara Anderson debate thread:

(disclaimer to other thread readers: Since I have very limited daily "free time" to spend here. (you know how "busy" we JW's are ) Please don't be offended if I fail to respond individually to you all. I do read ALL comments. Thank you)

Mary, I respectfully await your response to show me 1 or 2 specific examples of where I failed to make my case.
---
Sola Scriptura

"Accept truth wherever you find it, no matter what it contradicts." - Charles T. Russell
Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence. pp. 8-9 July 1879